Saint Joan of Arc (Jeanne la Pucelle): Difference between revisions
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Question: “Where is this mandrake of which you have heard?” Joan: “I have heard that it is in the earth, near the tree of which I spoke before; but I do not know the place. Above this mandrake, there was, it is said, a hazel tree.” Question: “What have you heard said was the use of this mandrake?” Joan: “To make money come; but I do not believe it. My Voice never spoke to me of that.”</ref></blockquote>Getting nowhere with the mandrake, the questioners turned back to the Saints. <blockquote>“In what likeness did Saint Michael appear to you?” </blockquote><blockquote>“I did not see a crown: I know nothing of his dress.”</blockquote><blockquote>“Was he naked?” </blockquote><blockquote>“Do you think God has not wherewithal to clothe him?” </blockquote><blockquote>“Had he hair?” </blockquote><blockquote>“Why should it have been cut off? I have not seen Saint Michael since I left the Castle of Crotoy. I do not see him often. I do not know if he has hair.” </blockquote><blockquote>“Has he a balance?”<ref>Saint Michael is commonly depicting the scales of judgment. (He is not himself the judge.)</ref></blockquote><blockquote> | Question: “Where is this mandrake of which you have heard?” Joan: “I have heard that it is in the earth, near the tree of which I spoke before; but I do not know the place. Above this mandrake, there was, it is said, a hazel tree.” Question: “What have you heard said was the use of this mandrake?” Joan: “To make money come; but I do not believe it. My Voice never spoke to me of that.”</ref></blockquote>Getting nowhere with the mandrake, the questioners turned back to the Saints. <blockquote>“In what likeness did Saint Michael appear to you?” </blockquote><blockquote>“I did not see a crown: I know nothing of his dress.”</blockquote><blockquote>“Was he naked?” </blockquote><blockquote>“Do you think God has not wherewithal to clothe him?” </blockquote><blockquote>“Had he hair?” </blockquote><blockquote>“Why should it have been cut off? I have not seen Saint Michael since I left the Castle of Crotoy. I do not see him often. I do not know if he has hair.” </blockquote><blockquote>“Has he a balance?”<ref>Saint Michael is commonly depicting the scales of judgment. (He is not himself the judge.)</ref></blockquote><blockquote> | ||
“I know nothing about it. It was a great joy to see him; it seemed to me, when I saw him, that I was not in mortal sin. Saint Catherine and Saint Margaret were pleased from time to time to receive my confession, each in turn. If I am in mortal sin, it is without my knowing it.”</blockquote>Always deferring to another topic when the prior line of questioning got them nowhere, and seizing on any point Joan made that could be twisted or used against her, her interrogators must have nearly jumped from their seats in glee at this one:<ref> | “I know nothing about it. It was a great joy to see him; it seemed to me, when I saw him, that I was not in mortal sin. Saint Catherine and Saint Margaret were pleased from time to time to receive my confession, each in turn. If I am in mortal sin, it is without my knowing it.”</blockquote>Always deferring to another topic when the prior line of questioning got them nowhere, and seizing on any point Joan made that could be twisted or used against her, her interrogators must have nearly jumped from their seats in glee at this one:<ref>Murray, p. 43</ref><blockquote>When you confessed, did you think you were in mortal sin?</blockquote>But they were up against a Saint. Joan replied,<blockquote>I do not know if I am in mortal sin, and I do not believe I have done its works; and, if it please God, I will never so be; nor, please God, have I ever done or ever will do deeds which charge my soul!</blockquote>Giving up, the interrogation turned to another topic, with which the court was obsessed, about the "sign" she had given the French king. She left them with an intriguing suggestion about "another, much richer" crown than the one he received at Reims.<ref>Murray, p. 44. From the register, "" Had your King a crown at Rheims ?" "I think my King took with joy the crown that he had at Rheims; but another, much richer, would have been given him later. He acted thus to hurry on his work, at the request of the people of the town of Rheims, to avoid too long a charge upon them of the soldiers. If he had waited, he would have had a crown a thousand times more rich." "Have you seen this richer crown?" "I cannot tell you without incurring perjury ; and, though I have not seen it, I have heard that it is rich and valuable to a degree."</ref> | ||
The next day, they went straight at her visions. The scribe noted that she had previously testified that Saint Michael "had wings" but nothing about the forms of Saints Catherine and Margaret. The scribe noted,<ref>Jeanne D‘arc, by T. Douglas Murray_The Trials_The Project Gutenberg eBook.pdf, pp. 45-46</ref><blockquote>Afterwards, because she had said, in previous Enquiries, that Saint Michael had wings, but had said nothing of the body and members of Saint Catherine and Saint Margaret, We asked her what she wished to say thereon.</blockquote>Joan responded,<blockquote>I have told you what I know; I will answer you nothing more. I saw Saint Michael and these two Saints so well that I know they are Saints of Paradise. </blockquote><blockquote>Did you see anything else of them but the face? </blockquote><blockquote>I have told you what I know; but to tell you all I know, I would rather that you made me cut my throat. All that I know touching the Trial I will tell you willingly. </blockquote><blockquote>Do you think that Saint Michael and Saint Gabriel have human heads? </blockquote><blockquote>I saw them with my eyes; and I believe it was they as firmly as I believe there is a God.</blockquote><blockquote>Do you think that God made them in the form and fashion that you saw? </blockquote><blockquote>Yes. </blockquote><blockquote>Do you think that God did from the first create them in this form and fashion? </blockquote><blockquote> | |||
You will have no more at present than what I have answered. </blockquote>Time to move on, then, now to whether her voices told her she will escape, another argument they used against her as she had attempted to escape from her original capture by the Burgundians. | |||
The point of all this focus on the clothing and bodies of the Saints was to prove heresy by stating that she physically interacted with the Saints, when the Church held that angels and saints were not corporeal. From the charges filed against her by the Rouen court,<ref>Murray, p. 355</ref> <blockquote>Article XLI I. Jeanne hath said and published that Saint Catherine and Saint Margaret and Saint Michael have bodies — that is to say, head, eyes, face, hair, etc. ; that she hath touched them with her hands ; that she hath kissed them and embraced them. </blockquote>Skeptical historians make much of Joan's testimony on the physicality of her Saints and the Archangel Michael, saying that it was a theological trap that the ignorant girl fell into, as if she should have molded her testimony to match their doctrine. Then, they say that she made it all up to feed the judges imagined details to throw them off... from what, is unclear, as what these historians would have wanted her to do here is, at best, not relate her experiences truthfully, or, the worst of them suggest, quit making up stories about them. Again, it ignores the record. At the Trial of Rehabilitation, Augustinian Bishop Jean Lefevre, who was at Rouen, told the examiners,<ref>Murray, p. 210, from May 9, 1452</ref> <blockquote>Jeanne answered with great prudence the questions put to her, with the exception of the subject of her revelations from God: for the space of three weeks<ref>i.e., that she was not always divinely inspired and testified untruthfully at other times, later in the trial</ref> I believed her to be inspired. She was asked very profound questions, as to which she showed herself quite capable ; sometimes they interrupted the enquiry, going from one subject to another, that they might make her change her purpose. The Examinations were very long, lasting sometimes two or three hours, so that the Doctors present were much fatigued. </blockquote>Lastly, the historians claim that she made it up since the [[Poitiers Conclusions]] don't mention the Saints or the Archangel, only that she had instructions "from God." To draw that conclusion, they have to ignore extensive witness testimony from the Trial of Rehabilitation stating that prior to Orleans Joan never mentioned them. Several pieces of evidence point to the contrary. | |||
The point of all this focus on the clothing and bodies of the Saints was to prove heresy by stating that she physically interacted with the Saints, when the Church held that angels and saints were not corporeal. From the charges filed against her by the Rouen court,<ref>Murray, p. 355</ref> <blockquote>Article XLI I. Jeanne hath said and published that Saint Catherine and Saint Margaret and Saint Michael have bodies — that is to say, head, eyes, face, hair, etc. ; that she hath touched them with her hands ; that she hath kissed them and embraced them. </blockquote>Skeptical historians make much of Joan's testimony on the physicality of her Saints and the Archangel Michael, saying that it was a theological trap that the ignorant girl fell into, as if she should have molded her testimony to match their doctrine. Then, they say that she made it all up to feed the judges imagined details to throw them off... | |||
First, at the Rouen Trial, on February 27, Joan was pressed about her "Voice." It was this day she revealed the names of Saints Catherine and Margaret:<ref>This and subsequent quotations from Murray, pp. 23-25</ref><blockquote>Are these two Saints dressed in the same stuff?</blockquote><blockquote>I will tell you no more just now ; I have not permission to reveal it If you do not believe me, go to Poitiers. There are some revelations which come to the King of France, and not to you, who are questioning me.</blockquote><blockquote>Are they of the same age?</blockquote><blockquote>I have not leave to say.</blockquote><blockquote>Do they speak at the same time, or one after the other?</blockquote><blockquote>I have not leave to say ; nevertheless, I have always had counsel from them both.</blockquote><blockquote>Which of them appeared to you first?</blockquote><blockquote>I did not distinguish them at first. I knew well enough once, but I have forgotten. If I had leave, I would tell you willingly : it is written in the Register at Poitiers. I have also received comfort from Saint Michael."</blockquote> | First, at the Rouen Trial, on February 27, Joan was pressed about her "Voice." It was this day she revealed the names of Saints Catherine and Margaret:<ref>This and subsequent quotations from Murray, pp. 23-25</ref><blockquote>Are these two Saints dressed in the same stuff?</blockquote><blockquote>I will tell you no more just now ; I have not permission to reveal it If you do not believe me, go to Poitiers. There are some revelations which come to the King of France, and not to you, who are questioning me.</blockquote><blockquote>Are they of the same age?</blockquote><blockquote>I have not leave to say.</blockquote><blockquote>Do they speak at the same time, or one after the other?</blockquote><blockquote>I have not leave to say ; nevertheless, I have always had counsel from them both.</blockquote><blockquote>Which of them appeared to you first?</blockquote><blockquote>I did not distinguish them at first. I knew well enough once, but I have forgotten. If I had leave, I would tell you willingly : it is written in the Register at Poitiers. I have also received comfort from Saint Michael."</blockquote> |