Saint Joan of Arc (Jeanne la Pucelle): Difference between revisions
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Historians make much of Joan's testimony on the physicality of her Saints and the Archangel Michael, some saying that it was a theological trap that the ignorant girl fell into, as if she should have sculpted her testimony to match learned Church doctrine. Article XLII conforms to Joan's testimony, but any condemnation derived from it is theologically incorrect, and they knew it.<ref>>> to add here Vatican debate on these points in canonization process</ref> | Historians make much of Joan's testimony on the physicality of her Saints and the Archangel Michael, some saying that it was a theological trap that the ignorant girl fell into, as if she should have sculpted her testimony to match learned Church doctrine. Article XLII conforms to Joan's testimony, but any condemnation derived from it is theologically incorrect, and they knew it.<ref>>> to add here Vatican debate on these points in canonization process</ref> | ||
The examiners deliberately used the noun "object"<ref>>> get from original transcript Latin/French</ref> in order to denigrate Joan's Visions, as the Church holds that such visions are of non-corporeal spirits and not of physical bodies or matter, or "objects", as the Rouen court carefully worded it. Church doctrine then and now also holds that the human soul separates from the body at death, whereupon it awaits reunification with its glorified body at the Final Judgment and Resurrection, so any visitation by a Saint would be non-corporeal, as well.<ref>The [https://www.usccb.org/sites/default/files/flipbooks/catechism/262/ Catechism of the Catholic Church paragraph 997] states, "In death, the separation of the soul from the body, the human body decays and the soul goes to meet God, while awaiting its reunion with its glorified body." See also [https://bible.usccb.org/bible/1corinthians/15?42 1 Corinthians 15:42-44]. For the Final Judgment see [https://bible.usccb.org/bible/john/5?28 John 5: 28-29]: "Do not be amazed at this, because the hour is coming in which all who are in the tombs will hear his voices and will come out, those who have done good deeds to the resurrection of life, but those who have done wicked deeds to the resurrection of condemnation."</ref> In this light we can see the purpose of the questions about the particulars of Joan's visitors, their hair, their smells, the sounds and language of their voices and if she touched them. It's not exactly counting angels on a pinhead, but it's a meaningless distinction they were making, as they well knew Saint Thomas's teachings that both Angels and the Saints may represent themselves to the living in the image or likeness of a body, albeit not materially (which would be an "object"). | The examiners deliberately used the noun "object"<ref>as well as "stuff", another reference to earthly not spiritual matter: "Are these two Saints dressed in the same stuff? (Murray p. 24) | ||
>> get from original transcript Latin/French</ref> in order to denigrate Joan's Visions, as the Church holds that such visions are of non-corporeal spirits and not of physical bodies or matter, or "objects", as the Rouen court carefully worded it. Church doctrine then and now also holds that the human soul separates from the body at death, whereupon it awaits reunification with its glorified body at the Final Judgment and Resurrection, so any visitation by a Saint would be non-corporeal, as well.<ref>The [https://www.usccb.org/sites/default/files/flipbooks/catechism/262/ Catechism of the Catholic Church paragraph 997] states, "In death, the separation of the soul from the body, the human body decays and the soul goes to meet God, while awaiting its reunion with its glorified body." See also [https://bible.usccb.org/bible/1corinthians/15?42 1 Corinthians 15:42-44]. For the Final Judgment see [https://bible.usccb.org/bible/john/5?28 John 5: 28-29]: "Do not be amazed at this, because the hour is coming in which all who are in the tombs will hear his voices and will come out, those who have done good deeds to the resurrection of life, but those who have done wicked deeds to the resurrection of condemnation."</ref> In this light we can see the purpose of the questions about the particulars of Joan's visitors, their age, their hair, their smells, the sounds and language of their voices and if she touched them. It's not exactly counting angels on a pinhead, but it's a meaningless distinction they were making, as they well knew Saint Thomas's teachings that both Angels and the Saints may represent themselves to the living in the image or likeness of a body, albeit not materially (which would be an "object"). | |||
From Thomas' ''SummaTheologiae:''<ref>[https://www.newadvent.org/summa/1051.htm Summa Theologiae, Question 51, Article 2, Reply to Objection 2]</ref> | From Thomas' ''SummaTheologiae:''<ref>[https://www.newadvent.org/summa/1051.htm Summa Theologiae, Question 51, Article 2, Reply to Objection 2]</ref> | ||
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Historians point to the difference between Joan's testimony about the Saints and the Archangels at the Rouen Trial and the absence of mention of them in contemporaneous documents from France after the time of her appearance at Chinon or later from witnesses at the Trial of Rehabilitation. They use the anomaly to justify the view that she made up stories about the Saints and Michael the Archangel during the Trial of Condemnation. For example, the [[Poitiers Conclusions]]<ref>Murray, p. 247</ref> mention only that she had instructions "from God." Several pieces of evidence point to the contrary. | Historians point to the difference between Joan's testimony about the Saints and the Archangels at the Rouen Trial and the absence of mention of them in contemporaneous documents from France after the time of her appearance at Chinon or later from witnesses at the Trial of Rehabilitation. They use the anomaly to justify the view that she made up stories about the Saints and Michael the Archangel during the Trial of Condemnation. For example, the [[Poitiers Conclusions]]<ref>Murray, p. 247</ref> mention only that she had instructions "from God." Several pieces of evidence point to the contrary. | ||
On the first day of the Rouen Trial, February 22, 1421, Joan introduced her "Voice" in the singular,<ref>Murray, p. 10</ref><blockquote>I was thirteen when I had a Voice from God for my help and guidance. The first time that I heard this Voice, I was very much frightened; it was mid-day, in the summer, in my father's garden. I had not fasted the day before. I heard this Voice to my right, towards the Church; rarely do I hear it without its being accompanied also by a light. This light comes from the same side as the Voice. Generally it is a great light. Since I came into France I have often heard this Voice.</blockquote>Later that day, Joan described her journey to Chinon, accompanied by the knights from Vaucouleurs, no mentioning that after a Mass along the way, she heard "Voices":<blockquote>On the way, I passed through Auxerre, where I heard Mass in the principal Church. Thenceforward I often heard my Voices."</blockquote>It is possible that this is when the Saints came to her, perhaps having heard only from Saint Michael until then. Interestingly, her interregators don't object to the switch from singular to plural "Voices," and both Joan and her interrogators use the cases "Voice" and "Voices" interchangeably. Well briefed by their spies in France, they likely already knew about Saints Margaret and Catherine, otherwise we'd have heard incredulity about them in general, and not just about what they looked like. On February 27, Joan revealed the names of Saints Catherine and Margaret:<ref>This and subsequent quotations from Murray, pp. 23-25</ref><blockquote>This Voice that speaks to you, is it that of an Angel, or of a Saint, or from God direct?</blockquote>The question reveals prior knowledge as to the answer, to which there is no surprise:<blockquote>It is the Voice of Saint Catherine and of Saint Margaret.</blockquote>The court merely pressed her as to how she tells them apart, how old they are, and how they are dressed, until Joan put a pause on the topic:<blockquote>I will tell you no more just now; I have not permission to reveal it If you do not believe me, go to Poitiers. There are some revelations which come to the King of France, and not to you, who are questioning me.</blockquote> | |||
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<blockquote>I will tell you no more just now ; I have not permission to reveal it If you do not believe me, go to Poitiers. There are some revelations which come to the King of France, and not to you, who are questioning me.</blockquote> | |||
<blockquote>Are they of the same age?</blockquote> | <blockquote>Are they of the same age?</blockquote> | ||
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Again she referred the court to the "Register at Poitiers,"<blockquote>" I will tell you no more just now ; I have not permission to reveal it If you do not believe me, go to Poitiers. There are some revelations which come to the King of France, and not to you, who are questioning me. </blockquote> | Again she referred the court to the "Register at Poitiers,"<blockquote>" I will tell you no more just now ; I have not permission to reveal it If you do not believe me, go to Poitiers. There are some revelations which come to the King of France, and not to you, who are questioning me. </blockquote> | ||
<blockquote>I did not distinguish them at first. I knew well enough once, but I have forgotten. If I had leave, I would tell you willingly : it is written in the Register at Poitiers. I have also received comfort from Saint Michael.</blockquote> | <blockquote>I did not distinguish them at first. I knew well enough once, but I have forgotten. If I had leave, I would tell you willingly: it is written in the Register at Poitiers. I have also received comfort from Saint Michael.</blockquote> | ||
Joan knew the court had investigated her extensively<ref>For example, on March 3, the Rouen court asked her, "What did you do in the trenches of La Charité?" Joan already knew what they were getting at, and shut down the line of inquiry before it could be asked: "I made an assault there; but I neither threw, nor caused to be thrown. Holy Water by way of aspersion." The questioner then moved on, asking, ""Why did you not enter La Charité, if you had command from God to do so?" Joan replied indiganantly, "Who told you I had God's command for it?" (Murray pp. 53-54). She knew the games they were playing.</ref>, so she had no reason to assume they had no access to the "Register at Poitiers," which was a transcript of her interviews by the "Doctors" at Poitiers on behalf of the Dauphin in early 1429. She even begged the court to get a copy of it, saying to her interrogator, Beaupère, | Joan knew the court had investigated her extensively<ref>For example, on March 3, the Rouen court asked her, "What did you do in the trenches of La Charité?" Joan already knew what they were getting at, and shut down the line of inquiry before it could be asked: "I made an assault there; but I neither threw, nor caused to be thrown. Holy Water by way of aspersion." The questioner then moved on, asking, ""Why did you not enter La Charité, if you had command from God to do so?" Joan replied indiganantly, "Who told you I had God's command for it?" (Murray pp. 53-54). She knew the games they were playing.</ref>, so she had no reason to assume they had no access to the "Register at Poitiers," which was a transcript of her interviews by the "Doctors" at Poitiers on behalf of the Dauphin in early 1429. She even begged the court to get a copy of it, saying to her interrogator, Beaupère, | ||