Saint Joan of Arc (Jeanne la Pucelle): Difference between revisions

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Where historians can simply dismiss her experience as, well, something, Joan here gives us a unique view into the experiences of an actual mystic.

The English-backed trial court, of course, was entirely antagonistic to those experiences, and reoriented her testimony and their questions constantly towards the accusations of witchcraft, such as the legend of a "Fairy Tree" at her hometown, Domrémy, and of mandrakes, a flowering plant which sorcerers were supposed to have used, and which were commonly kept by peasants as charms. Their investigation into Joan's hometown found that mandrakes were used there, which would be affirmed by the village priest who in April 1429, after Joan had already departed, preached against them.<ref>Murray, p. 42. See footnote no. 1 for the sermon against them.</ref>

The English-backed trial court, of course, was entirely antagonistic to those experiences, and reoriented her testimony and their questions constantly towards the accusations of witchcraft, such as the legend of a "Fairy Tree" at her hometown, Domrémy, and of mandrakes, a flowering plant which sorcerers were supposed to have used for spells,<ref>Mandrake roots have hallucinogenic properties and often resemble the shape of a human, thus their association with witches and magic. Niccolò Machiavelli's play, ''La Mandragola'', featured a mandrake used to trick a man into willingly allowing another to sleep with his wife. Voltaire's [https://archive.org/details/completetalesofv0000volt/page/56/ Letters of Amabed] (p. 56) mention the play, "The comedy which I saw day before yesterday, in the dwelling of the <mark>Pope</mark>, is entitled Za Mandragora;—the hero of the piece is an adroit young man who wishes to sleep with the wife of his neighbor; he hires with money a monk—a Fa tutto or a Fa molto—to seduce his mistress and to make the husband fall into an absurd trap; all through the play there is derision of the religion which Europe professes, of which Roume is the centre, and of which the papal seat is the throne. Such pleasures will perhaps appear to thee as indecent, my dear and pious Shastasid;—Delight of the Eyes was scandalized; but the comedy is so pretty that the pleasure overcame the scandal."</ref> and which were commonly kept by peasants as charms. Their investigation into Joan's hometown found that mandrakes were used there, which would be affirmed by the village priest who in April 1429, after Joan had already departed, preached against them.<ref>Murray, p. 42. See footnote no. 1 for the sermon against them.</ref>

She was asked,<ref>Murray, p. 41</ref><blockquote>Have your Voices forbidden you to speak the truth?</blockquote>After Joan replies,

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</ref> <blockquote>Nevertheless, according to the disposition of Divine providence separated souls sometimes come forth from their abode and appear to men, as Augustine, in the book quoted above, relates of the martyr Felix who appeared visibly to the people of Nola when they were besieged by the barbarians.</blockquote>Secular historians don't care about all that, so they simply use the Trial transcript to discredit Joan's Visions, forgetting or ignoring the nuance and lack of integrity in the questions to Joan about them. It becomes for them, just more evidence that Joan fed the judges with imagined details to throw them off, or... It's unclear to me what these historians would have her to have said instead of relating her experiences truthfully. And, again, it ignores the record.

>>here ~~<<keep lefevre?~~

>>here

At the Trial of Rehabilitation, Augustinian Bishop Jean Lefevre<ref>or Jean Favri</ref>, ~~who was at Rouen~~, told the examiners,<ref>Murray, p. 210, from May 9, 1452</ref>

Several of the clerics at the Rouen trial testified twenty years later at the Trial of Rehabilitation, including one of Joan's chief interrogators, Jean Beaupère, who maintained that Joan's voices were "from natural causes and human intent... [not] supernatural."<ref>Murray, p. 176</ref> Beaupère remained defiant. Another, lesser player from the Rouen court, Augustinian Bishop Jean Lefevre,<ref>or Jean Favri</ref> whom the biographer Pernoud calls, "a dubious character,"<ref>Pernoud, Retrial, p. 176, fn 4</ref> told the examiners essentially the same, that her Voices were not real:<ref>Murray, p. 210, from May 9, 1452</ref>

<blockquote>Jeanne answered with great prudence the questions put to her, with the exception of the subject of her revelations from God: for the space of three weeks<ref>I.e., that she was not always divinely inspired. Lefevre's testimony, as posted in Murray, is short and rarely referenced in other works on Saint Joan. Several of the participants at the Rouen Trial of Condemnation who testified to the Trial of Rehabilitation retained a bit of their animosity or disbelief in her that they had exercised vehemently at the trial. To Lefevre's credit, Massau recollected the Lefevre was worried that Joan "was being too much troubled" by the constant questioning regarding "whether she was in a state of grace." Lefevre makes a big point about this incident in the trial, opening his statement at the Rehabilitation Trial with, "When Jeanne was asked if she were in the Grace of God, I, who was present, said it was not a suitable question for such a girl. Then the Bishop of Beauvais said to me, "It will be better for you if you keep silent." Murray states that Lefevre objected to Joan's confinement in a military not ecclesiastic prison (Murry, p. 338).</ref> I believed her to be inspired. She was asked very profound questions, as to which she showed herself quite capable; sometimes they interrupted the enquiry, going from one subject to another, that they might make her change her purpose. The Examinations were very long, lasting sometimes two or three hours, so that the Doctors present were much fatigued. </blockquote>

<blockquote>Jeanne answered with great prudence the questions put to her, '''with the exception of the subject of her revelations from God''': for the space of three weeks<ref>I.e., that she was not always divinely inspired. Lefevre's testimony, as posted in Murray, is short and rarely referenced in other works on Saint Joan. Several of the participants at the Rouen Trial of Condemnation who testified to the Trial of Rehabilitation retained a bit of their animosity or disbelief in her that they had exercised vehemently at the trial. To Lefevre's credit, Massau recollected the Lefevre was worried that Joan "was being too much troubled" by the constant questioning regarding "whether she was in a state of grace." Lefevre makes a big point about this incident in the trial, opening his statement at the Rehabilitation Trial with, "When Jeanne was asked if she were in the Grace of God, I, who was present, said it was not a suitable question for such a girl. Then the Bishop of Beauvais said to me, "It will be better for you if you keep silent." Murray states that Lefevre objected to Joan's confinement in a military not ecclesiastic prison (Murry, p. 338).</ref> I believed her to be inspired. She was asked very profound questions, as to which she showed herself quite capable; sometimes they interrupted the enquiry, going from one subject to another, that they might make her change her purpose. The Examinations were very long, lasting sometimes two or three hours, so that the Doctors present were much fatigued. </blockquote>

>>

Lastly, the historians claim that she made up stories about the Saints and Michael the Archangel, since the [[Poitiers Conclusions]]<ref>Murray, p. 247</ref> mention only that she had instructions "from God." Several pieces of evidence point to the contrary.

@@ Line 767: / Line 767: @@
 Where historians can simply dismiss her experience as, well, something, Joan here gives us a unique view into the experiences of an actual mystic.
-The English-backed trial court, of course, was entirely antagonistic to those experiences, and reoriented her testimony and their questions constantly towards the accusations of witchcraft, such as the legend of a "Fairy Tree" at her hometown, Domrémy, and of mandrakes, a flowering plant which sorcerers were supposed to have used, and which were commonly kept by peasants as charms. Their investigation into Joan's hometown found that mandrakes were used there, which would be affirmed by the village priest who in April 1429, after Joan had already departed, preached against them.<ref>Murray, p. 42. See footnote no. 1 for the sermon against them.</ref>
+The English-backed trial court, of course, was entirely antagonistic to those experiences, and reoriented her testimony and their questions constantly towards the accusations of witchcraft, such as the legend of a "Fairy Tree" at her hometown, Domrémy, and of mandrakes, a flowering plant which sorcerers were supposed to have used for spells,<ref>Mandrake roots have  hallucinogenic properties and often resemble the shape of a human, thus their association with witches and magic. Niccolò Machiavelli's play, ''La Mandragola'', featured a mandrake used to trick a man into willingly allowing another to sleep with his wife. Voltaire's [https://archive.org/details/completetalesofv0000volt/page/56/ Letters of Amabed] (p. 56) mention the play, "The comedy which I saw day before yesterday, in the dwelling of the <mark>Pope</mark>, is entitled Za Mandragora;—the hero of the piece is an adroit young man who wishes to sleep with the wife of his neighbor; he hires with money a monk—a Fa tutto or a Fa molto—to seduce his mistress and to make the husband fall into an absurd trap; all through the play there is derision of the religion which Europe professes, of which Roume is the centre, and of which the papal seat is the throne. Such pleasures will perhaps appear to thee as indecent, my dear and pious Shastasid;—Delight of the Eyes was scandalized; but the comedy is so pretty that the pleasure overcame the scandal."</ref> and which were commonly kept by peasants as charms. Their investigation into Joan's hometown found that mandrakes were used there, which would be affirmed by the village priest who in April 1429, after Joan had already departed, preached against them.<ref>Murray, p. 42. See footnote no. 1 for the sermon against them.</ref>
 She was asked,<ref>Murray, p. 41</ref><blockquote>Have your Voices forbidden you to speak the truth?</blockquote>After Joan replies,
@@ Line 843: / Line 843: @@
 </ref> <blockquote>Nevertheless, according to the disposition of Divine providence separated souls sometimes come forth from their abode and appear to men, as Augustine, in the book quoted above, relates of the martyr Felix who appeared visibly to the people of Nola when they were besieged by the barbarians.</blockquote>Secular historians don't care about all that, so they simply use the Trial transcript to discredit Joan's Visions, forgetting or ignoring the nuance and lack of integrity in the questions to Joan about them. It becomes for them, just more evidence that Joan fed the judges with imagined details to throw them off, or... It's unclear to me what these historians would have her to have said instead of relating her experiences truthfully. And, again, it ignores the record.
->>here <<keep lefevre?
+>>here
-At the Trial of Rehabilitation, Augustinian Bishop Jean Lefevre<ref>or Jean Favri</ref>, who was at Rouen, told the examiners,<ref>Murray, p. 210, from May 9, 1452</ref>
+Several of the clerics at the Rouen trial testified twenty years later at the Trial of Rehabilitation, including one of Joan's chief interrogators, Jean Beaupère, who maintained that Joan's voices were "from natural causes and human intent... [not] supernatural."<ref>Murray, p. 176</ref> Beaupère remained defiant. Another, lesser player from the Rouen court, Augustinian Bishop Jean Lefevre,<ref>or Jean Favri</ref> whom the biographer Pernoud calls, "a dubious character,"<ref>Pernoud, Retrial, p. 176, fn 4</ref> told the examiners essentially the same, that her Voices were not real:<ref>Murray, p. 210, from May 9, 1452</ref>
-<blockquote>Jeanne answered with great prudence the questions put to her, with the exception of the subject of her revelations from God: for the space of three weeks<ref>I.e., that she was not always divinely inspired. Lefevre's testimony, as posted in Murray, is short and rarely referenced in other works on Saint Joan. Several of the participants at the Rouen Trial of Condemnation who testified to the Trial of Rehabilitation retained a bit of their animosity or disbelief in her that they had exercised vehemently at the trial. To Lefevre's credit, Massau recollected the Lefevre was worried that Joan "was being too much troubled" by the constant questioning regarding "whether she was in a state of grace." Lefevre makes a big point about this incident in the trial, opening his statement at the Rehabilitation Trial with, "When Jeanne was asked if she were in the Grace of God, I, who was present, said it was not a suitable question for such a girl. Then the Bishop of Beauvais said to me, "It will be better for you if you keep silent." Murray states that Lefevre objected to Joan's confinement in a military not ecclesiastic prison (Murry, p. 338).</ref> I believed her to be inspired. She was asked very profound questions, as to which she showed herself quite capable; sometimes they interrupted the enquiry, going from one subject to another, that they might make her change her purpose. The Examinations were very long, lasting sometimes two or three hours, so that the Doctors present were much fatigued. </blockquote>
+<blockquote>Jeanne answered with great prudence the questions put to her, '''with the exception of the subject of her revelations from God''': for the space of three weeks<ref>I.e., that she was not always divinely inspired. Lefevre's testimony, as posted in Murray, is short and rarely referenced in other works on Saint Joan. Several of the participants at the Rouen Trial of Condemnation who testified to the Trial of Rehabilitation retained a bit of their animosity or disbelief in her that they had exercised vehemently at the trial. To Lefevre's credit, Massau recollected the Lefevre was worried that Joan "was being too much troubled" by the constant questioning regarding "whether she was in a state of grace." Lefevre makes a big point about this incident in the trial, opening his statement at the Rehabilitation Trial with, "When Jeanne was asked if she were in the Grace of God, I, who was present, said it was not a suitable question for such a girl. Then the Bishop of Beauvais said to me, "It will be better for you if you keep silent." Murray states that Lefevre objected to Joan's confinement in a military not ecclesiastic prison (Murry, p. 338).</ref> I believed her to be inspired. She was asked very profound questions, as to which she showed herself quite capable; sometimes they interrupted the enquiry, going from one subject to another, that they might make her change her purpose. The Examinations were very long, lasting sometimes two or three hours, so that the Doctors present were much fatigued. </blockquote>
+>>
 Lastly, the historians claim that she made up stories about the Saints and Michael the Archangel, since the [[Poitiers Conclusions]]<ref>Murray, p. 247</ref> mention only that she had instructions "from God." Several pieces of evidence point to the contrary.